OBEY YOUR THIRST…AS LONG AS YOU QUESTION EVERYTHING ELSE.

BB: When you started out did you see Obey becoming a brand in it’s own right with a product line to support it?

OBEY: No I didn’t at all. It started off as a joke that I thought would last a few weeks but what kept it going was how eye opening the response was, it made me curious about all the facets of the comsumer mentality and what people decide is cool, what they’re going to embrace or what’s piss them off. So the interactive aspect of it made me open my eyes and keep taking it further and further.

BB: Do people have different reactions to what you do?

OBEY: I think it’s very fascinating but that’s what I like about it, it’s revealing about people’s perspectives and there’s also the group of people who liked it a lot when it was a wrench in the spokes of the normal semiotics of consumption, because there’s something out there that doesn’t lead to products and they liked the confusion that created, that culture jamming aspect of it. But when I began to make things for sale, they were like you’re part of the evil machine now and on one level I can totally understand that. So it’s interesting that even if the subject matter hasn’t shifted, having that commercial aspect can take it from something they liked to something they don’t look on favourably.

BB: There’s been a massive rise in Sticker Art and brands are jumping on the bandwagon, does that annoy you?

OBEY: The reason I called my book Supply and Demand is that I created a demand for something that there really shouldn’t have been a demand for because it was silly and now I have got to supplying it. Then other people see what’s been done there they try and copy it. Corporations are never going to say ‘Oh you know what let’s let that artist have his space and not saturate his scene.’ Corps automatically try and exploit anything that they think will try and sell more product, whether that is literal advertisement or associating their brand with a cache of a movement which makes them seem cool by association. There’s so many different ways they approach it. As it’s a reality, it’s not really a good or a bad thing, it’s an inevitable thing and therefore as an artist, a street artist or a musician or a creator of culture you always have to stay one step head or you don’t stand out from the herd anymore. So I think that anyone who’s creative should be used to having to be resourceful and having to rely on their ingenuity and creativity to make a mark as they don’t have the resources of the corporation. Why not keep that mentality and when you do something to create a niche and someone else follows it, use that motivation to move on and do something new.

A lot of people do get bummed out about it but what I always say is that graffiti is an act it’s not an aesthetic, it’s the act of putting something out in the street without permission and communicating with people. If corporations think that stencil and drippy letters are cool to people in the graffiti community then they’re going to steal that but it doesn’t mean they stole graffiti, it means they stole the look of graffiti so you just move on redefine the look of graffiti. That’s where it’s got to go, it’s evolution.

BB: Do you think that street art is more accepted in the public space?

OBEY: I do think that now that graffiti’s been around for 20 years and there’s always been political propaganda that was either for or against the system that’s bubbled up during wars or when anything controversial is going on. If you think how pervasive advertising has become then there’s an equal and opposite reaction from people who just want to get something out there that’s not necessarily political other than they’re saying ‘I’m going to express myself without permission.’ I’m glad that exists because I think it’s empowering to a lot of people, a lot of artists don’t like bureaucracy by nature and don’t want to wait in line to show at a gallery or have a piece of public art go through the red tape of getting governmental approval and so they’d be miserable if they had no outlet and could only go through the proper channels. So I think it’s a very constructive way to blow off steam but I also think the problem with a lot of companies getting hip to the street art thing is that a lot of people who are creative but suspicious might feel that anything they did on the street might be looked as having some kind of commercial value or agenda which might deflate them.

BB: Do people see your work and assume you’re a big brand?

OBEY: Yeah, there’s a lot of assumptions about my work, like I’m super rich and that everything that I do, I have a huge street team I pay to go and put things out on the street. People are naïve and I try not to get too down on them as they don’t know what the real deal is but you know it’s a bummer as it’s a defensive reaction from people who aren’t taking their lives into their own hands, and like to be able to complain about being victims of society or the system, you know like if you don’t have funding, ‘Like that guy’s funded by some big corp so you know I’m not, so I can’t do what he does.’ It’s bullshit. A lot of people try and find excuses.

I do love Banksy, he’s one of my favourites, because he’s out there doing stuff that communicates things as clearly as any advertising but is definitely artistic and coming from a counter culture perspective and I think it’s great that because anyone can get it. His agenda is political, it’s funny, it’s artistic. A lot of graffiti is too cryptic for the average person to understand. They’re like ‘Oh the graffiti world that’s like a secret world, people writing letters like code.’ Then the other side to that is when people like Playstation bring out a new game and they pay a bunch of people to get involved in their new game, to sticker every single pole in London or NYC or something, they’re using the public space but they’re not adding, they’re just adding clutter.

BB: Do you think people now are more cynical of marketing and big brands?

OBEY: I’m always for people questioning everything and if they become cynical then that’s ok as long as they don’t just write off everything to do with street art, you know ‘Oh there are companies doing street art now’ and they see the whole scene as invalid, I totally disagree with that. Corporations sponsor art in galleries too and that doesn’t make the art invalid, these things are always going to have to coexist.

BB: Do you see street artists exhibiting in a gallery space as selling out, or does it open up a new avenue for people to view their work?

OBEY: A gallery is a controlled environment for you to make your presentation however you want to, the street has a chaos and you never know what’s going to happen to it, so it’s going to affect the time and the quality of work you put on the street. I think Banksy is one of the few people with what he does on the street is top and what he does on the street works better than in the gallery. There are a lot of people who when they have time to refine what they’re doing, it’s really beautiful. For me, personally it’s just trying with the images I’m showing in the gallery still to have that connection to the politics, the street stuff and hopefully they stand on their own. My work, it’s decent on it’s own but it’s much better when you understand the general context, which is the street and it’s a populist thing not an elitist thing. A gallery is just another way get to your work out there and I think as a street artist if you only do stuff on the street, and the gallery is selling out then you’re never building a career for yourself that you can survive from.

It’s a very harsh scene with the street artists, it’s scrutinised like any other thing, it would be like if a band only went and performed live like on a street corner and if they sold one cd, or did one show at a venue where you had to pay to enter then they would be a sell out, in the same terms it makes everything else invalid. That’s what it’s like for street artists, the public wants the martyr who is sacrificing everything and gains nothing and is like Jesus reminding them of their sins. Fuck that! I want to be creative and make a living from it. I don’t want to be the guy that goes out cladestinely and then goes out and does a shitty job that makes me miserable! It makes for a good drama, you know you work as a janitor at day then at night you pull off your jacket and you have an S on your chest and put posters up. It’s really unrealistic and unfair. I think if you have integrity that’s the most important thing.

Banksy sold a painting to Christina Aguilera for $50,000 but no one questions his integrity as there’s a kind of Robin Hood mentality there. You know he’s robbing from the someone rich and doing stuff for the masses on the street, but he’s just bought a flat in London, so he’s not suffering.

The comparison I’ve made is like when you read a book and project your ideas onto the characters then when you see the movie you’re disappointed because they’re never going to live up to your mental picture. Banksy has been really smart in understanding that and everyone has their own picture in their mind of who he is and what he does. And as long as he never reveals his true identity then no one can be let down.

It’s smart but on the other hand that graffiti is vilified by the powers than be because the people are secretive and it’s like saying I know what I’m doing is wrong and hiding and I what I always said is what I’m doing isn’t wrong and I’m not going to hide but be an articulate spokesman for the movement. It’s two different choices, I think in terms of my stock as a rebel martyr maybe not be as high but I think I’m giving something valuable to people whether they appreciate it or not

BB: Are stickers still looked down on as a poor man’s graffiti in the street art community?

OBEY: I think in the sticker world, there’s always going to be that difference. Well what I love is the irony of it’s all about being a total rebel but there are all these rules. The aerosol graffiti world still adheres to stylistic and conduct codes that were established in like 1980. It’s really bizarre but it’s like a club where you have to prove yourself and be an apprentice and hang out with other people that do graffiti and there’s this whole almost frat like vibe. You know you got to be tested to get in and if you bypass that by making stickers, then it doesn’t seem to matter than stickers reach more people, but I completely reject that mentality.

It used to be pretty easy to steal spray paint but now it’s locked in a cage and you used to have to be 18 but graffiti started with spray paint as it was an accessible tool for art but now I think stickers are more accessible tool and the whole idea behind this is empowerment. You know whatever is easier to access for you that gives you the platform to communicate and create and that’s always valid. And stickers, I can’t say enough about how amazing I think stickers are. You just take ‘em anywhere and if you put 100 stickers up in a city people are going to notice, and you go out walking around in a city for a couple of days you know checking stores out and throw stickers up and it’s amazing the impact it has on people.

I love going to cities and walking around and absorbing the city while I’m putting my work around as my attention to detail is really heightened when I’m putting work up so every little thing I look at is seared in my memory.

BB: Who were your positive role models when you were growing up?

OBEY: The people who I looked up to mostly weren’t artists as my exposure to contemporary art was pretty limited. I was mostly into skate board graphics and tee shirts and punk album art, Jamie Reid, the Sex Pistols’ graphic artist was a big influence on me, to me it had that euphoric association with music that I loved, so them, the Clash, the Dead Kennedys, you know cool music you enjoy listening to, then there’s the lyrics and the art, it’s so multi faceted and I loved that the culture of skateboarding, a lot of their art was really fascinating. You know Jim Phillips, I love his art.

In college I always had an irrerevant sense of humour but I also had a serious side where I was questioning you know blind acceptance of what I think are a lot of silly laws, you know like you can’t burn the flag – it’s like what are you talking about? We’re a democracy! What do you mean we can’t burn the flag? But I always wanted to get my art across and this guy Robbie Kannel did a poster of Ronald Reagan, that said Contra above and Diction below and was an unflattering portrait and he nailed it and I thought it’s got everything, it’s got humour, it’s political and it’s his style and that motivated me to fuse everything together myself.,

BB: Do older people still mistake your distinctive style as something that echoes Communism?

OBEY: Part of my point is that things that are sinister are often delivered in a benign package and things that are benign are often made to look sinister and Soviet propaganda is some of the best design ever created. But there’s a fear due to how the West has been conditioned to think about the Red Tide so the West has stayed away from that design style because of the political associations. But if Macdonalds and Malboro are going to package their products which are not good for you as part of Americana, it’s almost like you’re rejecting your own DNA as an American to reject these brands and to me that was very sinister and conversely I’m doing a totally silly dead wrestler as my focal point and people don’t know, they jump to the conclusion that looking at the style it’s something a lot more subversive than that. The point is to get people to look past the style and see something silly and realise they’ve been manipulated and look at how other things are manipulative as well. So there was always the intent to make provocative work that was meant to be subversive, you want it to interact people in a way that provokes them other wise it’s just wall paper.

Do you know Malcolm Gladwell’s work? –The Tipping Point and Blink. The Tipping Point it’s about how trends bubble up and how it goes from being something underground to taking over into the mainstream. But Blink is about how people react instinctively first and intellectually second. And their intellectual response is affected by their intuitive response. So if you go into something with a negative point of view after they analyse it on an intellectual side they are much more interested in trying to justify their intuitive response through intellectualisation which is fascinating. You know someone like George Bush saying ‘We’re spreading peace and freedom and we’re against terror’. You know you want to believe that so you try and there’s a dumb American who’s so relieved to hear that they will try to avoid the intellectualisation that all the evidence that after these generalisations means his intentions don’t reflect that agenda. I guess it’s wishful thinking.

BB: You do some design consultancy and one off projects for companies, is there anyone you wouldn’t work with?

OBEY: I’ve worked with plenty of companies. And people are like how can you do that if you’re anti advertising, but if I’m not anti advertising, I’m anti people being manipulated by advertising.

There are brands out there who don’t advertise and people still respond to them. It’s weird how Burberry was this brand that I never saw an advert for it was just something there for old people, then it gets embraced by some hip hop heads and then it’s super cool for young people to have it. How did that happen? The brand had recognition but it’s not based on any advertising it’s based on the identity of the brand being a specific platform and that’s really interesting and those people might not have been into it if it wasn’t so pervasive, like Coca Cola. As soon as something’s big with hip hop people it will be dropped by them.

The way I work with branding and advertising is that if the product isn’t something I have an ethical conflict with then people have a right to try and get people to buy it. My advice to companies is that if you’re having trouble selling a product, then first look at your product, the problem is the product not the marketing, as good products sell themselves. Once you have a good product then you think how you can most effectively market it. There are companies I turn down as they are people I don’t want to work with, like I turned down work from Camel and Hummer, they’re not stuff I’m interested in. I don’t want to encourage people to smoke with my art.

I think there is a bit of an irony trying to get your art to get people to question everything whether it’s advertising or whether it’s your teacher, I want people to question it all. But some people are like ‘ oh you do advertising stuff but then you tell people you hate advertising’ and I’m like I don’t hate advertising!!

When I work with a company I listen to what they want and if it seems like it’s something I’m willing to do then I’ll do it with their agenda as my number one goal and not my ego as the artist. I think people use artists as designers are trying to hijack the platform for themselves and I’m always looking at it like if I’m going do my job right then it’s going to look good but also serve the client so it’s not always going to look like my own art, but I’ve got my own fine art so that I can express myself how I want.

BB: Do you get annoyed by people who collect and then sell on OBEY pieces, often making a big profit?

OBEY: Yeah I’ve seen some prints I’ve done go for a lot. There’s a guy who’s trying to sell something I did for like $300 for $20,000 online. You know it’s pretty crazy but one of the things that I’ve felt if I’m getting the money I want for it when I do it, then I don’t care if people sell it for more later. You know some people don’t have anything creative in their lives that they can offer so the only way is to huffle off what other people have done. I almost feel sorry for them. I put myself in their position, like what if I couldn’t do anything cool that anyone wanted, and would have to collect other people’s art or stocks and try to sell it on then that would be a miserable existence.

I pity them in a lot of ways. For me it’s really important to make art that is affordable for people who are the same age that I was when I got really excited about art. I make prints for like $30 and then when the editions sell out then they go up in value on the net. But that’s fine with me, cos I have my whole production effigency down so that if I make $30 I make enough of a margin to where I’m happy, and I’m happier that I’m not just making as much money as I can just cos I can, but I’m maintaining the spirit of the art movements that inspired me. A lot of artists come from the underground or subculture perspectives but then they get bigger and the only people who can afford to buy their art are rich people that they never would have related to when they started, that’s sad. But it’s not a bad thing for making money for what you love.

BB: Do you ever do art under a different name?

OBEY: Sometimes there’s projects that I do where I don’t use the Obey style as it’s not really appropriate so I don’t really look like I don’t want to look like it’s my stuff, it’s not that I’m embarrassed about it, it’s just doesn’t fit. Like I just did the new Lollapalooza tour poster and the one for the Rollins Band and did the poster in the Obey style and put a tiny icon on it as people know it’s the real deal and the artists like the way the poster comes out so we’re both happy. I like associating my work with things I like, like Banksy told me Damien Hirst told him he should never do another album package after doing the Blur package as he told him it was too pedestrian!!

I like associating my stuff with music and certain events of products, there’s this DJ comp that I just did the poster for. You know I DJ and I would never compete I just like going out and playing records but I really enjoy doing things like that.

For more info on OBEY go to www.obeyclothing.co.uk

First published in Blowback – July / Aug issue 2006.